59 Comments to “Bloggy Question 17 — The Official Writing Book Discussion”

1. August 6th, 2006 at 7:16 pm
   Neil Tortorella said

   Easy. Anything by Bob Bly and anything, and in particular, “Hypnotic Writing” by Joe Vitale. Both talk and take on the motivations behind direct response copywriting. But, the concepts are easily adapted to blogs.

   The thing is, life is a “direct response” situation. We’re always “selling” to somebody. It might be a prospect. It might be selling your significant other why Italian is a better choice than Chinese for dinner.

   With blogging, we’re “selling” our ideas. We’re selling our point of view. Our information. Our expertise. Learning to be persuasive is paramount to make our mark on the audience.

   In writing, there are certain words and ways of presenting ideas that motivate people (I would have used “folks” but Cat hates that :-). As bloggers, I believe it’s important to learn what motivates people to do, or think, thus and so and then tailor our writing to meet our objectives … but more importantly, the needs and wants of our audience.

   When bloggers become a trusted resource and source of information … useful information for our audience(s) … we become better writers. Naturally, grammar and spelling always come into play, but, information … good, useful information, I believe is key.

2. August 6th, 2006 at 7:24 pm
   ME Strauss said

   Hi Neil,
   I didn’t know Cat hates “folks.” I use it often I think it’s a friendly term . . . must be the midwest American casual in me.

   Bob Bly’s books are great, but I’ve lost some respect for his talk. One day he says he’s the king of blogs and the next he says blogs are worth nothing.

   Useful information needs credibility. (Like I should talk . . . I write with dyslexia.) For practical I like Noah Lukeman “A Dash of Style, The Art and Mastery of Punctuation.” It’s a great 225 page book for folks who fear the keys that we use to make smiley faces with.

3. August 6th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
   cat said

   Nt, you forgot to mention ‘cool’ …. but ‘folks’ aside …

   

   “A friend comes to you and says he wants to be a better writer. What books do you suggest?”

   As one of those friends who desires to be a better writer, I’m now going through ‘Rules for Writing’ which I’ve found highly helpful.

   Another one I’m working my way through is ‘On Writing Well’.

   I’d recommend the pair at the moment.

4. August 6th, 2006 at 7:59 pm
   ME Strauss said

   Those two are great ones.
   This one is worth looking into:
   Line by Line: How to Edit Your Own Writing by Claire Kehrwald

5. August 6th, 2006 at 7:59 pm
   cat said

   What books do you use to go along with writing? Similar to the Chicago manual of style and such.

6. August 6th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
   Neil Tortorella said

   So, I’m sitting here waiting for the Divine Ms. M to arise from her slumber and I watched my favorite movie over dinner … “ The Hudsucker Proxy.” Seems to me, this little ‘ole flick teaches us loads about the audience –

   1. Believe in yourself.

   2. Follow your dreams.

   3. Screw ‘em if they can’t take a joke.

   4. What you think you know, isn’t what you really know.

   5. Lather, rinse and repeat.

   The moral … follow your heart. Be honest. Others will follow. It will work.

7. August 6th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
   ME Strauss said

   Ah, but what Cat wants to know is . . . what books will help designers who can’t construct a sentence?

8. August 6th, 2006 at 8:07 pm
   cat said

   I have ‘Line by Line’ but as I haven’t felt any of my lines are ready for that book yet, it’s just been sitting on the shelf.

   After I get through ‘Rules for Writers’ I’ll tackle it.

9. August 6th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
   Neil Tortorella said

   Books, to me, are the same as movies. I get thoughts and ideas from both mediums. Same for … oooooh … tv. These media focus on people’s thoughts. I can pull from that.

10. August 6th, 2006 at 8:19 pm
    ME Strauss said

    You’re a great writer. Neil. Where did you learn to put a sentence together?

11. August 6th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
    Neil Tortorella said

    As for what constructs a sentence, I write like I talk. My audience has come to expect that. When I don’t, I’m scolded.

    Blogs are more casual … one-on-one conversation or at least tend to be. Be youself .. not somebody else … or worse … somebody you’ve read.Have your own voice. It’s yours. Use it.

12. August 6th, 2006 at 8:27 pm
    ME Strauss said

    But you talk well. Suppose someone doesn’t and really needs help. Writing isn’t um and uhs either. Some folks don’t know. They really need help. To think it’s not so is to be kind of unfair to them.

13. August 6th, 2006 at 8:28 pm
    cat said

    ps: I’ve posted twice and neither have gone through …

    Question: what books do you use as reference? Like the Chicago Manual of Style?

14. August 6th, 2006 at 9:08 pm
    Neil Tortorella said

    Liz,
    You’re way too kind. I just write like I talk. And that started with Cat.

    I don’t know of a book that teaches this … but …

    The thing is, when you’ve got something to say, hit the ‘ole keyboard and write it down. If you’re on a mac, like me, have it speak it all back. Does it make sense? Does it get the point across? What edits or or corrections need to be made? Stuff like that. Use the technology to fix stuff. Use your brain to think the ideas. Use the computer to fix things.

    People talk to people. Not computers. In a similar vein, people BUY from people and usually people they like. We’re not computers … in a much as we may like to hide behide them. We’re humans … and we have a lot to offer … we all bring to the table than we may think. And there in lies our [business / personal] value.

    By that, I mean, be yourself. Write what you fee
    l .. what you believe. Even if you don’t have a slick editor, you’ll find your audience. People seek and they find … honesty.

15. August 6th, 2006 at 9:11 pm
    ME Strauss said

    I agree with you, Neil, ever so much. I’m so tired of marketers who want to leverage and dominate the market of users, readers, eyeballs and such.

    I think to err on the side of the heart is always the best, no question about it.

    You’re lucky though. You’ve had enough practice that you automatically write words that make sense, unself-consciously.

16. August 6th, 2006 at 9:37 pm
    ME Strauss said

    Sorry, Cat,
    It seems that Askimet seems to find you quite tasty tonight. Most of the Publishers in Education use Words Into Type most of the real world publishers use Chicago Manual of Style.

17. August 6th, 2006 at 9:59 pm
    Rick said

    Good evening Liz, Cat, Neil. I just got home.

    I haven’t used many books, and it show in my writing. I’ve used How to Write by Herbert and Jill Meyer for short, to the point directions on how to write an article, Strunk and White’s The Elements of Style, and when I had delusions of being a fiction writer I liked Hallie and Whit Burnett’s Fiction Writers’ Handbook. I got the most help from writing classes at school, though, especially the critiques. What you said the other day, Liz, about having feedback does make a big difference.

18. August 6th, 2006 at 10:03 pm
    ME Strauss said

    Yeah, Rick, I guess I’m pretty stuck on the need for real live human feedback.

    Writing has

    word level
    sentence level
    text or thesis level

    The first two you can learn from book. The last requires talking about.

19. August 6th, 2006 at 10:06 pm
    cat said

    Chicago Manual of Style and Words into Type are both US, correct?

    Are there any British or Canadian listeners out there who can tell me what they use?

    I’ve got a copy of the Collins Good Writing Guide which is falling apart now that I’m reading again. But I’m not sure how it ranks in the way of assistance. Meaning compared to CMS and WIT.

20. August 6th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
    cat said

    Hi Rick. Being able to go to classes is something that is not available to me. Same as having a library I can get decent books from.

    This is why I depend so heavily on amazon.com. And why I spent so much time researching writing books back in 2000 or so. As I knew I’d be out in the wilderness as far as availability goes, so had to buy then, before the cost of shipping bit hard.

    Some books in my library I took a blind shot at. Some come highly recommended. None will go out of date so I’m fine with letting them collect dust until I can work my way through the list.

    And my wish list just keeps on growing!

21. August 6th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
    Rick said

    An online class?

22. August 6th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
    ME Strauss said

    Chicago Manual of Style and Words into Type are both US, correct? Yep they’re U.S.

    I don’t remember what my Int’l friends use.

23. August 6th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
    cat said

    After going over to amazon.co.uk, I came across

    The Oxford Style Manual (Hardcover)
    by Robert M. Ritter

24. August 6th, 2006 at 10:23 pm
    ME Strauss said

    That sounds familiar. It seems like Oxford U Press would have their hands on something like that.

25. August 6th, 2006 at 10:28 pm
    cat said

    I paid for a years membership at the Writers University, but then got so swamped I didn’t take any of the classes available.

    Also, I’d like to be able to get some of the basics down before venturing out.

    Now that I’m taking it seriously, my plan is to get through ‘Rules for Writers’ then tackle something online while I’m working my way through what I have here.

    It’s taken me this long just to clear my schedule enough to do it [fingers crossed]. It’s now a priority.

26. August 6th, 2006 at 10:30 pm
    ME Strauss said

    Gosh, don’t you wish they had free university for grownups?

27. August 6th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
    cat said

    Does anyone have any proofreading favs?

28. August 6th, 2006 at 10:33 pm
    ME Strauss said

    I never knew what a proofreading book would do.

29. August 6th, 2006 at 10:33 pm
    ME Strauss said

    I’m not being “smart” there either.

30. August 6th, 2006 at 10:33 pm
    Rick said

    I know the feeling.

    I’ll check out “Rules for Writers” and “Line by Line”.

31. August 6th, 2006 at 10:37 pm
    cat said

    A free uni for grownups. [sigh] that would be wonderful if it was funded by a gov somewhere. I

    n the UK they have the Open University, but it’s not free at all. And if you are an expat, it’s crazy expensive.

    Australia has some of the best distance learning programmes in the world. They also have great entry level training. But again, it’s for their nationals, which is fair.

    I’ve grown rather fond of books! (And I was crazy about them before.)

32. August 6th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
    ME Strauss said

    I really think that you should have to wait to go to university until you’re at least 40 years old.

33. August 6th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
    cat said

    Yesterday I went through what I’ve collected to get ready to write. The majority are from amazon.co.uk and .com, some are from second hand book stores.

    Since amazon.com has such a naff flash section for librarys, I’ve put them on my site. (I contacted amazon due to using their comments.)

    http://www.katzidesign.com/writing/index.html

    One very handy section on amazon is their wish lists. Mine can be found by clicking on the resources nav from the above. I’d put it here but the url is long and I’m not sure what code Liz has for this blog. If it’ll break the page or not.

34. August 6th, 2006 at 10:45 pm
    ME Strauss said

    It’ll break page, I guessing, unless you can hide in anchor text. This version of Word Press needs to get the no follow stripped out and it’s really cranky about links in comments in general.

35. August 6th, 2006 at 10:45 pm
    Rick said

    I would be happy with a free university for young people!

    When I went to school it was on the Veteran’s administration, so It was almost like getting paid to learn. It is too bad that couldn’t last longer. I am glad I waited to go to school. Between 18 and 25 my goals totally changed. I’ve tried to convince all my children to wait a few years to see if their interests and goals change.

36. August 6th, 2006 at 10:47 pm
    cat said

    Liz, I so agree!

    I graduated high school ahead of my class and went to ui very young. Looking back, it was a waste for the most part.

    The other students in my classes were several years ++++++ older than I was, and more experienced in the world.

    Knowing how I am, going to uni at an older age would be a better choice. But I didn’t realise that then. I found myself out and into uni before taking a breath.

37. August 6th, 2006 at 10:50 pm
    ME Strauss said

    Imagine being in university and actually only caring about what you’re learning. I also think students should be limited in the number of classes they can take.

38. August 6th, 2006 at 10:54 pm
    cat said

    Liz, there are two ways that I know of for getting around long urls and such
    (I’ve split the url into two)

    1) Use the Force Word Wrapping Plugin (may not work in WP 2.0)
    http://bloghelper.is-there.net/solving-the-long-
    words-and-urls-problem-in-wordpress/

    2) Use the overflow:hidden tag onto your container div (whether comment or post containers) in your CSS file

39. August 6th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
    cat said

    They did try to limit. But I believe at one time I was taking 19 credits and working two jobs. It’s been such a long time so I’m taking a stab at my memory here.

40. August 6th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
    ME Strauss said

    I’m not sure which is the problem . . . wordpress or the paged comments plugin.

41. August 6th, 2006 at 11:02 pm
    cat said

    “I would be happy with a free university for young people!”

    Amen to that one. Especially as it’s us oldies who pay for it. Or make the very difficult decision not to.

    I’m glad my step son had it handled as it would have been so expensive for us to back. He went into the army to get his education and was one of the few who spent all of his time except for the last few to six months in training as a paramedic.

    He got out and got a job as a trauma nurse while getting his prereqs out of the way for medical school.

    The medical school he applied to in California wouldn’t take him, but Harvard Medical did.

    He managed his schooling very well in my opinion. All it cost us was the congrats card at his graduation.

42. August 6th, 2006 at 11:04 pm
    ME Strauss said

    Your stepson sounds like one special guy. Education and all.

43. August 6th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
    cat said

    As you can most likely tell, I’m very proud of him. When he was small he told me that he wanted to be a neurosurgeon. He didn’t make it, but what he has done is not too shabby (especially as at one time I was worried about him even graduating from HS). And perhaps he’s not done yet?

    Back then it was like a kid raising kids as we are only 8 years apart. My step daughter was nine when I was nineteen. I’m not sure who was raising who …

44. August 6th, 2006 at 11:13 pm
    ME Strauss said

    All kids were put on earth to humble their parents.

45. August 6th, 2006 at 11:16 pm
    cat said

    ‘Why’ a book on proofreading …

    For those of us who are not trained, it makes sense to get tips from those who are.

    Just as I know what to look for in prepress files, writers know what to look out for when cleaning up copy to go to press.

    I came across several, but they’ll go in my wish list until I can get advice.

    McGraw-Hill’s Proofreading Handbook (Paperback)
    by Laura Killen Anderson looks decent.

46. August 6th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
    ME Strauss said

    I understand why you might want one, but really proofreading is summed up in a list of proofreader’s marks. What I can’t figure out was literal in my question. I don’t know what would be in such a book. I’ve never seen the inside of one — ever.

47. August 6th, 2006 at 11:26 pm
    cat said

    This explains it better than I did above:

    “Book Description
    Developing Proofreading and Editing Skills 4e by Camp provides instruction and applications designed to sharpen skills in detecting and correcting errors in written communications including memos, letters, reports, email messages, databases, presentation slides, advertisements, and spreadsheets. The material progresses from easy-to-recognize errors to those more difficult to spot, allowing students to build confidence and skill. Highlights of the 4th edition include a discussion of voice-recognition technology and proofreading and editing, two applications in each chapter available on CD-ROM, and a series of seven review modules offering challenging proofreading practice.”

    For me it’s not about learning the marks (I have to know at least where to look them up in the designing of books).

    As I believe it would make me a better writer, I want to be able to proofread what I write.

48. August 6th, 2006 at 11:34 pm
    ME Strauss said

    I had no doubt that you’ve no need to learn the marks. And they had not enough to make a book about proofreading . . . it’s about copyediting.

    I should have known that.

49. August 6th, 2006 at 11:46 pm
    cat said

    Copyediting … I’m assuming in writers lingo that copyeditors proofread …

    I found this one ==>> Copy-editing: The Cambridge Handbook for Editors, Authors and Publishers (Hardcover)

50. August 6th, 2006 at 11:53 pm
    Dave said

    Looks like I’m going against the grain on this one… I think good writing comes from the ‘gut.’ Yes, some books can influence you, but it is a skill that you either have or you don’t.

51. August 6th, 2006 at 11:57 pm
    ME Strauss said

    Hi Dave,
    I don’t disagree that effective writing is an art that comes from talent that some will never have. I also think that it’s a craft that every writer needs to work at and never quite conquers. I see writing as a self-actualizing experience — always becoming better and never quite getting there.

52. August 7th, 2006 at 12:11 am
    cat said

    Dave,

    Hmmm, skill is a learned thing .. talent, on the other hand is supposed to be something we are born with … and 15 years ago I would have nodded in agreement to that statement.

    You see, I thought that it took talent to be an artist. And I was comfortable in that assumption because I was a born artist. Or assumed I was as everyone said so. You see, I’d been drawing since I could hold a crayon and had become quite proficient, ’skilled’ if you like.

    Then a book came out called ‘Drawing on the right side of the brain’ http://www.drawright.com/

    Curious, I read it through and got the ‘ahhh hahhh’s’ as it described how I thought and felt. My process.

    I took a class to find out more. Convinced, I in turn taught others who had assumed from early years that they’d never be able to draw. Drawing didn’t ‘click’ with them right away so they went away frustrated, some embarrassed all the way through school and even with their own children when they were requested to draw.

    I’ve taught children as young as 3, adults into their 40’s. All learned how to draw very well. Portraits and anything else they had the drive to. The more practice they put into it, the better their drawing skills became.

    With this in mind, I do believe that the skill of writing can be learned. That talent and skill come with practice and time.

    I also feel that there are limitations. An imagination is needed, a creative brain, and most of all, an inner drive to succeed.

53. August 7th, 2006 at 12:15 am
    Roy said

    This topic is exactly what I have been looking for. I am going to take some of your suggestions to heart and put Amazon to work.

    Liz has already pointed out that I need to include more of “me” in my blog. I think she is right on target. As I told her, the only question is do I have the talent to do it. It will be fun trying.

54. August 7th, 2006 at 12:31 am
    Dave said

    Liz - you’re right it is an experience. Any books that makes my makes my mind think generally puts my mind into that creative frame. At least a lot more then any ‘Fabio’ book could even do

    Roy, that’s great advice. I had the opportunity to spend some time with Shel Isreal (Naked Conversations) and he opened my eyes to the different style of writing & transpareny that makes a good blog. Something that I have to keep working on.

55. August 7th, 2006 at 12:42 am
    cat said

    Since I’m not getting posted until much later, I guess I’ll just chat with myself until it catches up …

    skill
    n.

    1. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience. See Synonyms at ability.
    2.
    1. An art, trade, or technique, particularly one requiring use of the hands or body.
    2. A developed talent or ability: writing skills.

    …..

    tal·ent
    n.

    1. A marked innate ability, as for artistic accomplishment. See Synonyms at ability.
    2.
    1. Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality.
    2. A person or group of people having such ability: The company makes good use of its talent.

    …..

    There are degrees of course, but I now feel that skill and talent are closer together than were previously believed.

56. August 7th, 2006 at 8:12 am
    Lauren Hidden said

    What book do I recommend to improve your writing? Write It Right: The Ground Rules For Self-Editing Like the Pros. It’s not a grammar book: it gives you an easy 10 step process to identify your writing challenges and signficantly help improve your writing.

    Disclaimer: I’m the co-author of this book, haha. But check out the reviews on Amazon for yourself.

57. August 7th, 2006 at 8:15 am
    ME Strauss said

    Hi Lauren,
    Thanks for telling us about it. I think you’re the best person to mention what the book is and why we should use it. I’ve been making products long enough to know that the author/writer is often the only one who really knows what’s inside the covers.

58. August 7th, 2006 at 9:37 am
    cat said

    Thanks Lauren. I’ve added your book to my wish list. It’s exactly what I was looking for.

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